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old hacker...low tolerance

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  • Chris KawaC Chris Kawa

    @JoeCFD You know that Tom Cruise is part of a cult that believes multiple ancient aliens live in every cell of everyone's body, right? ;)

    JoeCFDJ Offline
    JoeCFDJ Offline
    JoeCFD
    wrote on last edited by JoeCFD
    #16

    @Chris-Kawa Good to know. Thanks for your info. I was kidding. But I do share what @Kent-Dorfman wrote.

    mzimmersM 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • JoeCFDJ JoeCFD

      @Chris-Kawa Good to know. Thanks for your info. I was kidding. But I do share what @Kent-Dorfman wrote.

      mzimmersM Offline
      mzimmersM Offline
      mzimmers
      wrote on last edited by
      #17

      @JoeCFD outsourcing is OK as long as you don't give it to democrats aliens.

      JoeCFDJ 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • mzimmersM mzimmers

        @JoeCFD outsourcing is OK as long as you don't give it to democrats aliens.

        JoeCFDJ Offline
        JoeCFDJ Offline
        JoeCFD
        wrote on last edited by JoeCFD
        #18

        @mzimmers I read someone's story. He trained someone in a foreign country and was then laid off. This is insane. A manager should never do that.

        fcarneyF 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • JoeCFDJ JoeCFD

          @mzimmers I read someone's story. He trained someone in a foreign country and was then laid off. This is insane. A manager should never do that.

          fcarneyF Offline
          fcarneyF Offline
          fcarney
          wrote on last edited by
          #19

          @JoeCFD I know a company that trained people in a foreign country as partners. The people there spun off a competing company using their tech and all the sales from the partnership dried up. You can probably guess which country that is.

          C++ is a perfectly valid school of magic.

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • TomZT Offline
            TomZT Offline
            TomZ
            wrote on last edited by
            #20

            Its actually nice to read this thread because the "software dev" profession has been so overrun and the 'if its not solved on stackoverflow, its not possible to fix" mindset, that its depressing. So, reading that actually good devs are hanging on, laying low, that is positive as that means that the profession isn't forever doomed :-)

            Nearly a decade ago I joined a cpp company in Oslo which focused on financials, trading and that kind of stuff. I learned about that stuff as a matter of course and am forever changed. In short, the financial system we use is in great part responsible for a lot of problems in the world today. Understanding basic economics has been insightful, to say the least. (mandatory reading).

            As systems like the financial system extract more and more value out of the hardworking people, the companies are having a harder time actually making a profit. First to go is longer term planning and investment in tech. If it doesn't produce results the next week, its not a priority.

            Then the forever dropping interest rate (well, they went up slightly recently, but remember in your youth you'd get nearly 10%) means that companies that are really not making a profit can get loans to keep them afloat longer than they really should be.
            This looks like its not a problem at first, less people fired, right? But good and honest companies are fighting those non-profitable companies for good people, so it actually is really a boon to the entire ecosystem if the bad companies go bankrupt. It allows a new one to start.

            There is light, though. I'm optimistic about possibilities and ways forward. Society is darn close to rock-bottom as a whole. It can only go up from here.

            In the mean-time I'm happy working on open source software on my own terms, building fun stuff for real use. Though figuring out Android for the first time is harder than I expected.

            JonBJ Chris KawaC 2 Replies Last reply
            0
            • TomZT TomZ

              Its actually nice to read this thread because the "software dev" profession has been so overrun and the 'if its not solved on stackoverflow, its not possible to fix" mindset, that its depressing. So, reading that actually good devs are hanging on, laying low, that is positive as that means that the profession isn't forever doomed :-)

              Nearly a decade ago I joined a cpp company in Oslo which focused on financials, trading and that kind of stuff. I learned about that stuff as a matter of course and am forever changed. In short, the financial system we use is in great part responsible for a lot of problems in the world today. Understanding basic economics has been insightful, to say the least. (mandatory reading).

              As systems like the financial system extract more and more value out of the hardworking people, the companies are having a harder time actually making a profit. First to go is longer term planning and investment in tech. If it doesn't produce results the next week, its not a priority.

              Then the forever dropping interest rate (well, they went up slightly recently, but remember in your youth you'd get nearly 10%) means that companies that are really not making a profit can get loans to keep them afloat longer than they really should be.
              This looks like its not a problem at first, less people fired, right? But good and honest companies are fighting those non-profitable companies for good people, so it actually is really a boon to the entire ecosystem if the bad companies go bankrupt. It allows a new one to start.

              There is light, though. I'm optimistic about possibilities and ways forward. Society is darn close to rock-bottom as a whole. It can only go up from here.

              In the mean-time I'm happy working on open source software on my own terms, building fun stuff for real use. Though figuring out Android for the first time is harder than I expected.

              JonBJ Offline
              JonBJ Offline
              JonB
              wrote on last edited by
              #21

              @TomZ said in old hacker...low tolerance:

              Society is darn close to rock-bottom as a whole. It can only go up from here.

              LOL. We shall see.... :(

              1 Reply Last reply
              1
              • TomZT TomZ

                Its actually nice to read this thread because the "software dev" profession has been so overrun and the 'if its not solved on stackoverflow, its not possible to fix" mindset, that its depressing. So, reading that actually good devs are hanging on, laying low, that is positive as that means that the profession isn't forever doomed :-)

                Nearly a decade ago I joined a cpp company in Oslo which focused on financials, trading and that kind of stuff. I learned about that stuff as a matter of course and am forever changed. In short, the financial system we use is in great part responsible for a lot of problems in the world today. Understanding basic economics has been insightful, to say the least. (mandatory reading).

                As systems like the financial system extract more and more value out of the hardworking people, the companies are having a harder time actually making a profit. First to go is longer term planning and investment in tech. If it doesn't produce results the next week, its not a priority.

                Then the forever dropping interest rate (well, they went up slightly recently, but remember in your youth you'd get nearly 10%) means that companies that are really not making a profit can get loans to keep them afloat longer than they really should be.
                This looks like its not a problem at first, less people fired, right? But good and honest companies are fighting those non-profitable companies for good people, so it actually is really a boon to the entire ecosystem if the bad companies go bankrupt. It allows a new one to start.

                There is light, though. I'm optimistic about possibilities and ways forward. Society is darn close to rock-bottom as a whole. It can only go up from here.

                In the mean-time I'm happy working on open source software on my own terms, building fun stuff for real use. Though figuring out Android for the first time is harder than I expected.

                Chris KawaC Offline
                Chris KawaC Offline
                Chris Kawa
                Lifetime Qt Champion
                wrote on last edited by
                #22

                @TomZ said:

                Society is darn close to rock-bottom as a whole. It can only go up from here.

                Every few years someone says that and every time there's someone with a shovel to prove them wrong.

                1 Reply Last reply
                2
                • J.HilkJ Offline
                  J.HilkJ Offline
                  J.Hilk
                  Moderators
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #23

                  I have low expectations for society, and despite that, I'm getting disappointed on a regular basis.


                  Be aware of the Qt Code of Conduct, when posting : https://forum.qt.io/topic/113070/qt-code-of-conduct


                  Q: What's that?
                  A: It's blue light.
                  Q: What does it do?
                  A: It turns blue.

                  Chris KawaC 1 Reply Last reply
                  3
                  • J.HilkJ J.Hilk

                    I have low expectations for society, and despite that, I'm getting disappointed on a regular basis.

                    Chris KawaC Offline
                    Chris KawaC Offline
                    Chris Kawa
                    Lifetime Qt Champion
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #24

                    I've just read yet another article about how C++ needs to die because pointers, and no-code/low-code is the next big thing. Basically "computers too hard, need make businessmen move pretty pictures instead. We'll call it programming from now on"...

                    Depressed

                    TomZT 1 Reply Last reply
                    2
                    • Chris KawaC Chris Kawa

                      I've just read yet another article about how C++ needs to die because pointers, and no-code/low-code is the next big thing. Basically "computers too hard, need make businessmen move pretty pictures instead. We'll call it programming from now on"...

                      Depressed

                      TomZT Offline
                      TomZT Offline
                      TomZ
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #25

                      @Chris-Kawa said in old hacker...low tolerance:

                      I've just read yet another article about how C++ needs to die because pointers, and no-code/low-code is the next big thing.

                      What are people's opinion about the effort called 'cppfront' (from hsutter).

                      Personally I'm thinking its quite interesting and does solve a lot of legacy issues with the language.

                      Chris KawaC 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • TomZT TomZ

                        @Chris-Kawa said in old hacker...low tolerance:

                        I've just read yet another article about how C++ needs to die because pointers, and no-code/low-code is the next big thing.

                        What are people's opinion about the effort called 'cppfront' (from hsutter).

                        Personally I'm thinking its quite interesting and does solve a lot of legacy issues with the language.

                        Chris KawaC Offline
                        Chris KawaC Offline
                        Chris Kawa
                        Lifetime Qt Champion
                        wrote on last edited by Chris Kawa
                        #26

                        @TomZ My personal opinion: Herb is a good presenter and community builder, but he has spent decades trying hard to make C++ not C++. He tried with .Net, C++/CLI, C++/CX and a bunch of features that thankfully didn't make it into standard. He made a big presentation about memory management in C++ a few years back and the first Q&A question was "Did you just implement a garbage collector?". cppfront shows the same attitude, even in the different syntax, that's often different for the sake of it being different. At the point he presented it it didn't even have classes. It's under control of single person, would take decades to become production ready for even simple projects. I don't see anything useful for C++ coming out of it beyond maybe some trivial features tested early. For example he says the defaults in C++ are bad and it's a chance to see what would it look like to change them. We know defaults are bad and we know there's no way to change them without breaking the world, so what's the point? To me cppfront is basically a toy to play around with compiler. Just like Carbon, that was announced around the same time. Similar syntax even, because these guys hang around together.

                        TomZT 1 Reply Last reply
                        2
                        • Chris KawaC Chris Kawa

                          @TomZ My personal opinion: Herb is a good presenter and community builder, but he has spent decades trying hard to make C++ not C++. He tried with .Net, C++/CLI, C++/CX and a bunch of features that thankfully didn't make it into standard. He made a big presentation about memory management in C++ a few years back and the first Q&A question was "Did you just implement a garbage collector?". cppfront shows the same attitude, even in the different syntax, that's often different for the sake of it being different. At the point he presented it it didn't even have classes. It's under control of single person, would take decades to become production ready for even simple projects. I don't see anything useful for C++ coming out of it beyond maybe some trivial features tested early. For example he says the defaults in C++ are bad and it's a chance to see what would it look like to change them. We know defaults are bad and we know there's no way to change them without breaking the world, so what's the point? To me cppfront is basically a toy to play around with compiler. Just like Carbon, that was announced around the same time. Similar syntax even, because these guys hang around together.

                          TomZT Offline
                          TomZT Offline
                          TomZ
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #27

                          @Chris-Kawa said in old hacker...low tolerance:

                          We know defaults are bad and we know there's no way to change them without breaking the world, so what's the point?

                          But that's the entire point of the project. It allows changing the defaults without breaking the world. Which is the most important point of the project.

                          Not sure why you think it would not be able to accomplish that.

                          See it in this light; ever new class you write from now on will be forced to have sane defaults and good practices enforced. Old code stays old code, no changes needed. You can even refactor and mix, but it would be frowned upon in your CI. And, naturally, it all gets compiled with the same compiler and links together.

                          @Chris-Kawa said in old hacker...low tolerance:

                          To me cppfront is basically a toy to play around with compiler.

                          Its not a compiler. As the name implies. You still use your normal cpp compiler in the end.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • Chris KawaC Offline
                            Chris KawaC Offline
                            Chris Kawa
                            Lifetime Qt Champion
                            wrote on last edited by Chris Kawa
                            #28

                            But that's the entire point of the project

                            Pretty much entire world runs on C++. Took it almost 40 years to get there. cppfront is not gonna have any relevance for at least the same. Now you have a complicated C++ language. If you introduce cppfront somewhere you're not dropping the old. You'll have to be an expert in both and in interop between them to get anywhere.
                            Tooling for C++ is abundant and often sucks. There's no tooling for cppfront whatsoever. There's no libraries, editors, toolchain support, test frameworks. Pretty much no infrastructure for it whatsoever beyond compiler explorer. The language itself is in a napkin draft stage and is owned by a single person.

                            Its not a compiler

                            I know. I meant that it's a toy language to play with existing compiler to see what it can do if you drop legacy dependencies. Which you can do on a playground, but can't do in the real world.

                            JonBJ TomZT 2 Replies Last reply
                            0
                            • Chris KawaC Chris Kawa

                              But that's the entire point of the project

                              Pretty much entire world runs on C++. Took it almost 40 years to get there. cppfront is not gonna have any relevance for at least the same. Now you have a complicated C++ language. If you introduce cppfront somewhere you're not dropping the old. You'll have to be an expert in both and in interop between them to get anywhere.
                              Tooling for C++ is abundant and often sucks. There's no tooling for cppfront whatsoever. There's no libraries, editors, toolchain support, test frameworks. Pretty much no infrastructure for it whatsoever beyond compiler explorer. The language itself is in a napkin draft stage and is owned by a single person.

                              Its not a compiler

                              I know. I meant that it's a toy language to play with existing compiler to see what it can do if you drop legacy dependencies. Which you can do on a playground, but can't do in the real world.

                              JonBJ Offline
                              JonBJ Offline
                              JonB
                              wrote on last edited by JonB
                              #29

                              @TomZ , @Chris-Kawa said in old hacker...low tolerance:

                              Its not a compiler

                              I know.

                              Reading and learning from you two. But it's amusing that the opening sentence from its author at https://github.com/hsutter/cppfront reads:

                              Cppfront is a experimental compiler from a potential C++ 'syntax 2' (Cpp2) to today's 'syntax 1' (Cpp1), to learn some things, prove out some concepts, and share some ideas. This compiler is a work in progress

                              [My bold.]

                              Chris KawaC 1 Reply Last reply
                              1
                              • JonBJ JonB

                                @TomZ , @Chris-Kawa said in old hacker...low tolerance:

                                Its not a compiler

                                I know.

                                Reading and learning from you two. But it's amusing that the opening sentence from its author at https://github.com/hsutter/cppfront reads:

                                Cppfront is a experimental compiler from a potential C++ 'syntax 2' (Cpp2) to today's 'syntax 1' (Cpp1), to learn some things, prove out some concepts, and share some ideas. This compiler is a work in progress

                                [My bold.]

                                Chris KawaC Offline
                                Chris KawaC Offline
                                Chris Kawa
                                Lifetime Qt Champion
                                wrote on last edited by Chris Kawa
                                #30

                                @JonB Right, I guess we got carried away. cppfront is the compiler for cpp2 or C++ syntax 2 language.

                                Btw. "C++ 'syntax 2'" is such a classic Herb move to make something new and call it C++. He knows that if you call it D or Rust most C++ people won't be interested. He's a good salesman.

                                The goal of that project is to see if we could evolve C++ if we dropped legacy dependencies. Let me spare you the trouble:

                                • Can we make a better language if we drop legacy dependencies? - Absolutely, it was done multiple times.
                                • Can we evolve existing code base into that new language? - It's been tried. Leads to local pockets of messy unmaintainable hybrids that bog down the system and eventually get rewritten in the yet next bigger thing or dropped entirely.
                                • Can we try it anyway because we know better? - Sure, have at it

                                It's curious to me that Stroustrup doesn't seem to comment on it (or at least I haven't noticed), yet Herb keeps using his cfront as an example to call cppfront the same thing. I wonder what he thinks of it.

                                1 Reply Last reply
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                                • Chris KawaC Chris Kawa

                                  But that's the entire point of the project

                                  Pretty much entire world runs on C++. Took it almost 40 years to get there. cppfront is not gonna have any relevance for at least the same. Now you have a complicated C++ language. If you introduce cppfront somewhere you're not dropping the old. You'll have to be an expert in both and in interop between them to get anywhere.
                                  Tooling for C++ is abundant and often sucks. There's no tooling for cppfront whatsoever. There's no libraries, editors, toolchain support, test frameworks. Pretty much no infrastructure for it whatsoever beyond compiler explorer. The language itself is in a napkin draft stage and is owned by a single person.

                                  Its not a compiler

                                  I know. I meant that it's a toy language to play with existing compiler to see what it can do if you drop legacy dependencies. Which you can do on a playground, but can't do in the real world.

                                  TomZT Offline
                                  TomZT Offline
                                  TomZ
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #31

                                  @Chris-Kawa said in old hacker...low tolerance:

                                  Pretty much entire world runs on C++. Took it almost 40 years to get there. cppfront is not gonna have any relevance for at least the same. Now you have a complicated C++ language. If you introduce cppfront somewhere you're not dropping the old. You'll have to be an expert in both and in interop between them to get anywhere.

                                  Ok, this is factually a project that takes a cpp2 file, and "compiles" (ok, I guess he calls that compiling) it to regular C++, which is then put in your project to compile with all the other files.

                                  Knowing this, I'm not sure why you have such worries. Indeed, nobody is going to suggest you drop the old, there is no reason to throw away any cpp tooling as it still works, there is no "interop" to worry about as its literally the same concepts, the same library and the method names you make up are still pure C++ methods.

                                  Let me repeat that, your Qt library can be used with zero config, glue or interop-work from cpp-front. Because both are C++.

                                  Now, I read you have doubts about the guy's motives. And that's fair, I don't know (or care) about the man. He is indeed a great presenter, I'll give you that.
                                  But I don't give a hoot about the man, I care about the research and the open source code.

                                  Anyway, the reason this is on this thread is because there is a real industry push away from unsafe code. Out of bounds memory accesses (raw pointer arithmetic) are still near the top when it comes to exploits and similar issues. Dropping C++ is one way to go, but that 40 years of history is indeed a pretty big reason why that's not gonna happen. So, this is one way to go.

                                  Maybe to avoid the politics; what about https://github.com/SerenityOS/jakt ?

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • Chris KawaC Offline
                                    Chris KawaC Offline
                                    Chris Kawa
                                    Lifetime Qt Champion
                                    wrote on last edited by Chris Kawa
                                    #32

                                    Ok, this is factually a project that takes a cpp2 file, and "compiles" it to regular C++

                                    Currently. Again, it's a napkin spec right now. There's already a talk about meta-classes and other stuff that doesn't have direct translation into standard C++.

                                    there is no "interop" to worry about

                                    Try calling a syntax 2 function from C++. Yes, you need glue.

                                    Because both are C++

                                    No, they're not. Just like JavaScript and TypeScript are not the same. You are buying into the marketing. It's not C++. It's a one direction translation. Bidirectional interop needs glue.

                                    How about we focus on educating better and methodically improve existing C++ instead of inventing 42nd language for attention deficient people, who look for instant wins and can't be bothered to put any effort in? Because that's a rising and far larger problem than some syntax tidbits. Just look at any technical forum - next generation is perfectly well capable of f-ing up in syntax 2, just like they are in C++. It's a sociological problem to a far greater extent than a technical one.

                                    Besides, there were bunch of other languages starting with good intentions like this - C++ without its legacy problems. D for example. The issue is that it starts that way, but when the language grows to the size that is actually useful, it gathers its own baggage of legacy problems. You end up in the same spot, just with lost time that you could've put into improving what you already had. The world is already spinning. There is no starting over.

                                    JoeCFDJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                    3
                                    • Chris KawaC Chris Kawa

                                      Ok, this is factually a project that takes a cpp2 file, and "compiles" it to regular C++

                                      Currently. Again, it's a napkin spec right now. There's already a talk about meta-classes and other stuff that doesn't have direct translation into standard C++.

                                      there is no "interop" to worry about

                                      Try calling a syntax 2 function from C++. Yes, you need glue.

                                      Because both are C++

                                      No, they're not. Just like JavaScript and TypeScript are not the same. You are buying into the marketing. It's not C++. It's a one direction translation. Bidirectional interop needs glue.

                                      How about we focus on educating better and methodically improve existing C++ instead of inventing 42nd language for attention deficient people, who look for instant wins and can't be bothered to put any effort in? Because that's a rising and far larger problem than some syntax tidbits. Just look at any technical forum - next generation is perfectly well capable of f-ing up in syntax 2, just like they are in C++. It's a sociological problem to a far greater extent than a technical one.

                                      Besides, there were bunch of other languages starting with good intentions like this - C++ without its legacy problems. D for example. The issue is that it starts that way, but when the language grows to the size that is actually useful, it gathers its own baggage of legacy problems. You end up in the same spot, just with lost time that you could've put into improving what you already had. The world is already spinning. There is no starting over.

                                      JoeCFDJ Offline
                                      JoeCFDJ Offline
                                      JoeCFD
                                      wrote on last edited by JoeCFD
                                      #33

                                      @Chris-Kawa Oh, no, you are against the Great Reset.

                                      One thing I do agree with you is: it makes more sense to make C++ better than to invent more other languages.
                                      For example, I used to use a lot of Fortran. If C++ has efficient multi-dimensional array(will have in 23), Fortran can be dropped easily.

                                      Chris KawaC 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • JoeCFDJ JoeCFD

                                        @Chris-Kawa Oh, no, you are against the Great Reset.

                                        One thing I do agree with you is: it makes more sense to make C++ better than to invent more other languages.
                                        For example, I used to use a lot of Fortran. If C++ has efficient multi-dimensional array(will have in 23), Fortran can be dropped easily.

                                        Chris KawaC Offline
                                        Chris KawaC Offline
                                        Chris Kawa
                                        Lifetime Qt Champion
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #34

                                        The sad part for me is that a bunch of those new languages popping up are made by current or former C++ standard committee members, which sounds like "oh no, it's too hard, I'll make my own". And it's not even a joint effort. Everyone wants to be the inventor of the next big thing. I mean I don't mind people wasting time. It's their time to waste. It's just those are the people who are actually in a position to do something impactful. I wish they would've spent that time more productive for the sake of all of us.

                                        JoeCFDJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • Chris KawaC Chris Kawa

                                          The sad part for me is that a bunch of those new languages popping up are made by current or former C++ standard committee members, which sounds like "oh no, it's too hard, I'll make my own". And it's not even a joint effort. Everyone wants to be the inventor of the next big thing. I mean I don't mind people wasting time. It's their time to waste. It's just those are the people who are actually in a position to do something impactful. I wish they would've spent that time more productive for the sake of all of us.

                                          JoeCFDJ Offline
                                          JoeCFDJ Offline
                                          JoeCFD
                                          wrote on last edited by JoeCFD
                                          #35

                                          @Chris-Kawa Actually not bad if they can come up with some good ideas.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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